Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 10:52:50 -0800 From: Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com> To: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org> Cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>, Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net>, Hackers freeBSD <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk> Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) Message-ID: <F4A2607D-BB3E-4D00-B8D9-C633DB7C0102@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CAOtMX2jdDSUwtifm=a_nqJWg_5yCOoe4BYGmO4QkbysRZ8UCrg@mail.gmail.com> References: <wojtek@puchar.net> <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net> <201901032228.x03MSxkq087945@slippy.cwsent.com> <CAOtMX2jdDSUwtifm=a_nqJWg_5yCOoe4BYGmO4QkbysRZ8UCrg@mail.gmail.com>
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> On Jan 3, 2019, at 14:51, Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> wrote: >> >> In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net>, Wojciech >> Puchar wr >> ites: >>>>> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get *pushed* >>>>> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said >>>>> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a >>>>> resounding NO, save for bloat. >>>> >>>> And this is why one reason people say “FreeBSD is dying†. >>>> >>> dying for whom? >> >> Not to answer this question but to think strategically: >> >> I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of >> my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines, >> large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today, >> virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations >> from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux >> on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their >> effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is >> canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being >> implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for >> microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of >> supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running >> microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a >> virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and >> containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public >> cloud and back again easily. >> >> Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is >> containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more. >> And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it >> are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost >> effectiveness of standing up applications. >> >> IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the >> Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language >> Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating >> importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a >> PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position >> FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and >> Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports. >> >> Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator >> and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in >> addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other >> virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or >> FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one >> or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster. >> >> This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future. >> >> Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind. >> >> >> -- >> Cheers, >> Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> >> FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org >> >> The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. > > FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think > there's any reason to put it into base. +1. Kubernetes should remain as a port, given the development process that Facebook and Google use being out of step with the BSDs (backwards compatibility to the degree that BSD wants is generally a lower priority item). > The interesting thing about > Rust is that it's so good at low-level work. As we discussed, > Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust. And Fabian > Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust. Enji > is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust. Sidenote: not wanting to do an rc(8) replacement. More like a system monitor of sorts, paralleling what devd does with device events and such. > These are the > kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the > language barrier. Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports. > If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base > system, it might be Lua. Lua’s already in base — the bootloader is being rewritten from forth to Lua. > Though high level, its embeddable and nicely > complements C and Rust. That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and > it even in the NetBSD kernel. And Linux kernel for that matter, iirc. It’s a wonderful, stripped down language. It’s just a bit awkward to write because its lexicography/grammar matches pure mathematics as opposed to many other C-like languages. Thanks :), -Enji
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